Comments on: Wizards Watch: Save or Die Spells, Clerics-in-a-Tincan & One-Hour D&D… Really? http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd A D&D 4e Blog Dedicated to Dungeonmasters & Players Thu, 21 Aug 2014 02:51:25 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Editor-in-Chief http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd/comment-page-1#comment-40961 Editor-in-Chief Thu, 22 Mar 2012 02:58:48 +0000 http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=6848#comment-40961 @Axetogrind - Oh I agree the system should be quick, but complexity will slow it down every time. What I'm not willing to sacrifice is complexity, however, and I discussed my concerns about making the base game too overly simplified in my blog on the D&D Community site - <a href="http://community.wizards.com/neuroglyph/blog/2012/03/20/why_i_hate_the_goal_of_one-hour_dd" rel="nofollow"><strong>WHY I HATE THE GOAL OF "ONE-HOUR D&D"</strong></a> @Axetogrind – Oh I agree the system should be quick, but complexity will slow it down every time. What I’m not willing to sacrifice is complexity, however, and I discussed my concerns about making the base game too overly simplified in my blog on the D&D Community site – WHY I HATE THE GOAL OF “ONE-HOUR D&D”

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By: Anaxetogrind http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd/comment-page-1#comment-40949 Anaxetogrind Thu, 22 Mar 2012 00:45:15 +0000 http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=6848#comment-40949 I agree with this sentiment personally. http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.com/2012/03/one-hour-d.html#comment-form Anything I can do in an hour is enhanced with 4 and for the base of a modular system has to be quick to allow added complexity I agree with this sentiment personally. http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.com/2012/03/one-hour-d.html#comment-form
Anything I can do in an hour is enhanced with 4 and for the base of a modular system has to be quick to allow added complexity

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By: Dave Wainio http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd/comment-page-1#comment-40936 Dave Wainio Wed, 21 Mar 2012 23:01:35 +0000 http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=6848#comment-40936 Yikes, if that link to the SA leaked 5E info is real and not a fake, I am somewhat terrified about what 5E will end up being like. Not terribly surprised, but like facing a beholder and an ancient red dragon armed with a +1 dagger worries..... Yikes, if that link to the SA leaked 5E info is real and not a fake, I am somewhat terrified about what 5E will end up being like. Not terribly surprised, but like facing a beholder and an ancient red dragon armed with a +1 dagger worries…..

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By: Alphastream http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd/comment-page-1#comment-40813 Alphastream Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:36:21 +0000 http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=6848#comment-40813 Neuroglyph, I read a lot of frustration in your words. There is a lot here that could probably be said a different way and actually end up ahead for being more constructive. Much of what you write is really fantastic, but the valleys are so dark and low! More peaks, more peaks! Do I hear things about D&D Next that worry me? Of course. I can't imagine there are too many people that don't get that feeling. That's a playtest for you, however. The first versions of adventures organized play sends out for playtest are often severely flawed. If people judged the work I do by the playtests, I would never be allowed to produce any D&D work. Nor would many of our top bloggers, authors, designers, and developers. There is a reason expertise is useful in this industry - it is hard work and takes iterations to get right. We as customers do the game a disservice if we let our frustration blind us to the potential. When we react to things we don't like with anger and frustration, that's what we further: we get more anger and frustration. While storming Wizards with pitchforks sounds cool (and would produce fabulous loot) it isn't going to make for a good D&D Next. The conversation needs to be constructive. I have tons of great games. I have 4E. I have 7 or so editions of D&D and many more of other games. And yet, I'm willing to bet I'll love D&D Next. And the one after that too. The best way to make all these games great is to share what we love, to bring energy to the process, and to be passionate while being constructive and respectful. <a href="http://bit.ly/OneHourDnD" rel="nofollow">I wrote about my own approach to this issue here</a>. Neuroglyph, I read a lot of frustration in your words. There is a lot here that could probably be said a different way and actually end up ahead for being more constructive. Much of what you write is really fantastic, but the valleys are so dark and low! More peaks, more peaks!

Do I hear things about D&D Next that worry me? Of course. I can’t imagine there are too many people that don’t get that feeling. That’s a playtest for you, however. The first versions of adventures organized play sends out for playtest are often severely flawed. If people judged the work I do by the playtests, I would never be allowed to produce any D&D work. Nor would many of our top bloggers, authors, designers, and developers. There is a reason expertise is useful in this industry – it is hard work and takes iterations to get right. We as customers do the game a disservice if we let our frustration blind us to the potential.

When we react to things we don’t like with anger and frustration, that’s what we further: we get more anger and frustration. While storming Wizards with pitchforks sounds cool (and would produce fabulous loot) it isn’t going to make for a good D&D Next. The conversation needs to be constructive.

I have tons of great games. I have 4E. I have 7 or so editions of D&D and many more of other games. And yet, I’m willing to bet I’ll love D&D Next. And the one after that too. The best way to make all these games great is to share what we love, to bring energy to the process, and to be passionate while being constructive and respectful.

I wrote about my own approach to this issue here.

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By: Aaron http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd/comment-page-1#comment-40798 Aaron Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:27:36 +0000 http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=6848#comment-40798 Anyone see the leak on SA? Here let me link: http://pastebin.com/zRWmNeZd If this is legit, than it is worth a read for a laugh. But again take it with a grain of salt. Anyone see the leak on SA? Here let me link:
http://pastebin.com/zRWmNeZd

If this is legit, than it is worth a read for a laugh. But again take it with a grain of salt.

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By: One-Hour D&D, why Mike Mearls is right, and speed of play « The Distracted DM http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd/comment-page-1#comment-40796 One-Hour D&D, why Mike Mearls is right, and speed of play « The Distracted DM Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:08:19 +0000 http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=6848#comment-40796 [...] I think is what Michael over at Neuroglyph completely missed when he posted his article about a few D&D Next Legends and Lore topics(You’ll have to scroll down to find the section on the One Hour D&D article). With all due [...] [...] I think is what Michael over at Neuroglyph completely missed when he posted his article about a few D&D Next Legends and Lore topics(You’ll have to scroll down to find the section on the One Hour D&D article). With all due [...]

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By: froth http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd/comment-page-1#comment-40742 froth Tue, 20 Mar 2012 10:45:13 +0000 http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=6848#comment-40742 Dnd next is out now, its called labyrinth lord Dnd next is out now, its called labyrinth lord

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By: Editor-in-Chief http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd/comment-page-1#comment-40729 Editor-in-Chief Tue, 20 Mar 2012 08:10:32 +0000 http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=6848#comment-40729 @Bob - Well until you've tried 4E, I don't think it's fair for you to judge it so harshly... try it at least once before you agree with the random nay-sayers. As to your dislike of 3.x/OGL, I understand that everyone "likes what they like", but the financial success of 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, and other games that use d20 as their engine, tends to suggest there are plenty of role-players out there that would disagree with your assessment... myself included. @Hunterian7 - I don't know as I'd say that Mearls is out to destroy D&D, but I do question what market research they scrapped up to allow them to disavow 4E so early, and to try and recreate old edition D&D as the Next best thing in gaming. A buddy of mine suggested that perhaps we're seeing the market research happening right now, and that the "playtesters" are actually "focus groups" to determine what they should be designing. Based upon the questionaires attached to every blog they post, it might not be such a far stretch there. @Doc Ryder - Yes, I don't feel that 4E was given a fair shake, and all indications are that it's being mothballed way before it's time. I'm with you in predicting that there will be 4E fans galore angry over what's due to come out, if the blogs are any indication, and I'll be right at the forefront, leading the angry mob! @Aoi & @Par - Hate to disagree, but encounter design, adventure design, and the speed of advancement is one of the myriad things that 4E got right! Knowing your XP budget, and that you will have 8-10 encounters per level makes it SO much easier to plan an entire adventure of a given level, whether you want to have 2, 3, 4, or all 8-10 encounters in any given adventure. Any expectation of a single adventure taking an hour is ludicrous, because heroes tend to do what they want, unless you plan to make adventures linear affairs and lead your players by the nose. And like I said in my blog, roleplaying is about the big picture and the continuing storyline, not about what you can cram into a single play session. @Aaron - I know... I just can't wait to roll up my Next fighter that gets to swing once per round for the first 5 levels while the wizard blows stuff up with his spells. Man, I really miss those rounds of waiting to make my single attack roll with my weapon, cause that's all I do is hit things, and then miss, so I can go off and watch TV on the couch until something actually HAPPENS! Who needs complexity for a fighter like 4E thinks is cool when I can just spend my time between attack rolls watching Lost Girl on SyFy... woot! @Bob – Well until you’ve tried 4E, I don’t think it’s fair for you to judge it so harshly… try it at least once before you agree with the random nay-sayers. As to your dislike of 3.x/OGL, I understand that everyone “likes what they like”, but the financial success of 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, and other games that use d20 as their engine, tends to suggest there are plenty of role-players out there that would disagree with your assessment… myself included.

@Hunterian7 – I don’t know as I’d say that Mearls is out to destroy D&D, but I do question what market research they scrapped up to allow them to disavow 4E so early, and to try and recreate old edition D&D as the Next best thing in gaming. A buddy of mine suggested that perhaps we’re seeing the market research happening right now, and that the “playtesters” are actually “focus groups” to determine what they should be designing. Based upon the questionaires attached to every blog they post, it might not be such a far stretch there.

@Doc Ryder – Yes, I don’t feel that 4E was given a fair shake, and all indications are that it’s being mothballed way before it’s time. I’m with you in predicting that there will be 4E fans galore angry over what’s due to come out, if the blogs are any indication, and I’ll be right at the forefront, leading the angry mob!

@Aoi & @Par – Hate to disagree, but encounter design, adventure design, and the speed of advancement is one of the myriad things that 4E got right! Knowing your XP budget, and that you will have 8-10 encounters per level makes it SO much easier to plan an entire adventure of a given level, whether you want to have 2, 3, 4, or all 8-10 encounters in any given adventure. Any expectation of a single adventure taking an hour is ludicrous, because heroes tend to do what they want, unless you plan to make adventures linear affairs and lead your players by the nose. And like I said in my blog, roleplaying is about the big picture and the continuing storyline, not about what you can cram into a single play session.

@Aaron – I know… I just can’t wait to roll up my Next fighter that gets to swing once per round for the first 5 levels while the wizard blows stuff up with his spells. Man, I really miss those rounds of waiting to make my single attack roll with my weapon, cause that’s all I do is hit things, and then miss, so I can go off and watch TV on the couch until something actually HAPPENS! Who needs complexity for a fighter like 4E thinks is cool when I can just spend my time between attack rolls watching Lost Girl on SyFy… woot!

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By: Dave Wainio http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd/comment-page-1#comment-40715 Dave Wainio Tue, 20 Mar 2012 05:15:40 +0000 http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=6848#comment-40715 Oh yeah, almost forgot. The 'iconic cleric' in armor with a mace bit. If I recall an interview I read with Gary Gygax way back in the day he said that the medevil church of the crusades and stories like the Song of Roland were the main inspiration for D&D clerics. Mr. Gygax had a catholic upbringing. Quite a number of biblical references can be found in the D&D and AD&D work that he was involed with. Oh yeah, almost forgot. The ‘iconic cleric’ in armor with a mace bit. If I recall an interview I read with Gary Gygax way back in the day he said that the medevil church of the crusades and stories like the Song of Roland were the main inspiration for D&D clerics. Mr. Gygax had a catholic upbringing. Quite a number of biblical references can be found in the D&D and AD&D work that he was involed with.

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By: Dave Wainio http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/wizards-watch-sod-clerics-one-hour-dnd/comment-page-1#comment-40714 Dave Wainio Tue, 20 Mar 2012 05:10:56 +0000 http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=6848#comment-40714 As to the question of who D&D Next is targeted at,my guess would be all the Pathfinder players. What little information regarding sales that reaches the general public indicates that Pathfinder folks are buying more stuff than 4E D&D folks. Hasbro wants those sales and seems to have decided that the problem is not writing 4E books that gamers want and need but to redesign D&D to capture the Pathfinder people (while making them want to buy all new books I presume). Oh, and keep the faithful that stayed with D&D past 3.5 if possible as an afterthought. All those little multiple choice questionaires are what worries me. If they are to be used as the marketing research to build around then what happens if the winning choice of item A does not mechanically work with the winning choice of item B ? Oddly enough, 4E could be scaled back and reskinned to look like something a 3.5 OGLer/Pathfinder player would likely 'recognize' as "real D&D.". Just stick a chart for fighters, rogues and such that grants them new abilities every odd level or so and have some of the 4E powers be those abilities. Arcane and divine powers can be written as spells and a chart fo how many by level you can use whipped out. Bang, the unified theory D&D. Hey, does that mean Hasbro will pay me for designing their game for them,... :) Oh - and if you want quick combat then have fewer hit points for everything. Like the old Arduin or Realms of Wor rule sets where constitution plus size (or something like that) was the only hit points you'd ever have. Around 18 to 26 regardless of if you were a newbe with your first sword or a veteran of 100 dungeons. Ogres had many 30is.Dragons almost never more than 100. With damage averages close to 10 per hit combat rarely lasted more than six or seven rounds. What we are witnessing is the classic case of designing to fit what one guesses the public wants rather than making a good product and then convincing the public to try it. Works for headphones and tea kettles I suppose, not so sure about pen and paper role play games. As to the question of who D&D Next is targeted at,my guess would be all the Pathfinder players. What little information regarding sales that reaches the general public indicates that Pathfinder folks are buying more stuff than 4E D&D folks. Hasbro wants those sales and seems to have decided that the problem is not writing 4E books that gamers want and need but to redesign D&D to capture the Pathfinder people (while making them want to buy all new books I presume). Oh, and keep the faithful that stayed with D&D past 3.5 if possible as an afterthought.

All those little multiple choice questionaires are what worries me. If they are to be used as the marketing research to build around then what happens if the winning choice of item A does not mechanically work with the winning choice of item B ?

Oddly enough, 4E could be scaled back and reskinned to look like something a 3.5 OGLer/Pathfinder player would likely ‘recognize’ as “real D&D.”. Just stick a chart for fighters, rogues and such that grants them new abilities every odd level or so and have some of the 4E powers be those abilities. Arcane and divine powers can be written as spells and a chart fo how many by level you can use whipped out. Bang, the unified theory D&D. Hey, does that mean Hasbro will pay me for designing their game for them,… :) Oh – and if you want quick combat then have fewer hit points for everything. Like the old Arduin or Realms of Wor rule sets where constitution plus size (or something like that) was the only hit points you’d ever have. Around 18 to 26 regardless of if you were a newbe with your first sword or a veteran of 100 dungeons. Ogres had many 30is.Dragons almost never more than 100. With damage averages close to 10 per hit combat rarely lasted more than six or seven rounds.

What we are witnessing is the classic case of designing to fit what one guesses the public wants rather than making a good product and then convincing the public to try it. Works for headphones and tea kettles I suppose, not so sure about pen and paper role play games.

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